[00:00:00] Joseph: Hi everyone, and welcome on this latest episode of Coaching in Focus. I’m Joseph Grech, your host, and on today’s episode, we are talking leadership coaching with Jo Holliday. Jo has extensive experience working with leaders across a number of different organizations. And on today’s episode we’re talking about ideas such as how great leaders cannot afford not to coach, and the importance of building trust and [00:00:30] accountability.

[00:00:31] Joseph: Self-directedness in our team members through activities such as coaching. Of course, we talk about wellbeing, uh, listening really well to our employees, uh, and being. About the people who we work with. We also talk a little bit around what can get in the way of leaders using a coaching style, perhaps work pressures or lack of our own confidence in coaching skills.

[00:00:56] Joseph: So let’s listen in to the episode and I hope you enjoy [00:01:00] it.

[00:01:03] Joseph: Welcome, Jo on today’s. It’s really nice to see you. It’s really nice to have you

[00:01:07] Jo: here. Thank you so much for inviting

[00:01:08] Joseph: me as a starting point. Would you like to tell our listeners a little bit about yourself

[00:01:14] Jo: and what you do? Yeah, so I am a freelance consultant. I have, I suppose, three strings to the work that I do, all really geared around.

[00:01:24] Jo: Trying to build organizations that are positive, that are [00:01:30] empowering, that get the best for the organization, but also the best for the people as well. So I suppose those three elements are all linked to that, and they are consulting, so helping organizations with that whole cultural piece about how do we create the right environment.

[00:01:45] Jo: Then there’s the bid around supporting leaders and managers. Help their teams help themselves and develop and get the best outta people. And then the final one, and the most important one for this call is coaching. Um, so I do find that those [00:02:00] three just link really nicely together. They sort of, I find that I’m weaving my coaching work into my leadership and management work.

[00:02:07] Jo: And then the cultural piece comes in that as well. And I

[00:02:09] Joseph: guess coaching cuts through all of these things. Yeah, right. Absolut, what are you consulting, I guess using a lot of those coaching skills anyways. If you’re working in a leader, Development program. Then there’s also the coaching element to it. Yeah.

[00:02:20] Joseph: So what got you

[00:02:21] Jo: into coaching then? It goes back quite a long way actually. So I’ve been consulting for about 18 years and then before that I actually had a proper job. [00:02:30] Um, so I was really, really fortunate that I worked for Martin Spencer’s, um, in the UK for about 17 years doing. Various roles, hr, general hr.

[00:02:42] Jo: Then I started to specialize a little bit in, um, more that sort of l and d leadership and management piece. And there were various times during that 17 years where we would be offered coaching training, whether that was to. Deliver coaching for others or to [00:03:00] help others as leaders and managers to be coaches as well.

[00:03:02] Jo: So it started probably, I mean, that’s probably, oh dear, that’s really painful. Thinking about the time. So that’s probably going back sort of 25 years. Um, an initial intro to coaching. And then as I’ve developed and gone freelance, I’ve just continued to hone that and now got my qualification. I’m accredited with I C F, got my a c c just recently renewed that.

[00:03:26] Jo: Uh, thank you to Joseph for helping me with that. Well [00:03:30] done. Well done. Yeah, so, you know, keeping that C p D and those skills, You know, topped up and maintained. Um, that’s important. So yeah, it goes back quite a long way, my coaching story. Mm-hmm.

[00:03:42] Joseph: And by the way, I also used to work at m ans Oh, years ago. Did you I did a Malta, I was on the shop floor.

[00:03:49] Joseph: Oh yeah.

[00:03:49] Jo: Was my, one of our franchise. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you.

[00:03:54] Joseph: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I spent I think three years working at m and s. Yeah, I [00:04:00]wasn’t the wine

[00:04:00] Jo: section. That’s amazing. I dunno. Anything about wine? Oh very. Oh good. It was the best section. We had

[00:04:06] Joseph: this banner where, so there was like the front kind of end of the shop Right.

[00:04:10] Joseph: With all the wines there. And then behind it we stored all the extra wine. Yeah. And um, You know, sometimes customers would come in and ask for a particular type of wine, had no idea how 90, so I’d go behind. I’d say, just wait a minute, sir. You know, I’d go behind and look at the store and I’d read the labels at the back.

[00:04:29] Joseph: The [00:04:30] perfect wine for you come out like it was a personalized recommendation that you, Somme.

[00:04:41] Jo: Oh, fantastic. Oh, well there is another connection that we didn’t know. There’s another, there’s another connection

[00:04:45] Joseph: there. Amazing. Let’s move on to the today’s topic, which is about leadership. Mm-hmm. But tell us a bit more. I mean, what are the links between leadership skills and coaching skills, do you

[00:04:55] Jo: think?

[00:04:56] Jo: I mean, it’s a really good question because I think you go back. [00:05:00] To a certain extent to own what, what’s the role of a leader? Um, right. And I think if you, if you get back to that point, then that helps with making that connection. So for me, a leader has primarily got two roles. One is around. Steering the ship.

[00:05:17] Jo: So if we take that whole, you know, ship analogy as David Marque and submarines, et cetera, but you know, they’re there to steer the ship, set some direction. Probably the one doing the horizon scanning. Luke, what’s coming forward. [00:05:30] But then the other piece is around your role as a leader is to. Really develop and get the best out of your people.

[00:05:38] Jo: Not in a sense of, oh, what can we get outta these people for the organization, but to really grow and develop the talent and the potential that you’ve got in the organization. Because if you’ve got that, if you’ve got clear direction and then you’ve got amazing people and you have helped to grow, develop, and support those people, what could possibly go wrong?

[00:05:56] Jo: You’ve just nailed everything. Then I just think leaders [00:06:00] just, they just exhaust themselves sometimes. I think trying. Do too much trying to do everything rather than. Actually releasing the potential of the people. Yeah. Within the organization. I mean, Liz Wiseman talks a lot about this in her book multipliers, and there’s a lovely like three minute video that she does as well around the fact that, you know, we work with some leaders who just seem to magnify the potential of people because of the way that they work with those people and develop and [00:06:30]grow them.

[00:06:30] Jo: They’re almost like double their brain size, I think is the way that she describes it. And then you’ve got other managers and leaders. So, I don’t know, just seemed to, to squash that potential. And I think coaching really plays into that space of unlocking the ideas, the curiosity, the confidence building, all of that.

[00:06:50] Jo: I, I just think there’s, there’s such a close connection between the two.

[00:06:54] Joseph: What was interesting to me as you were exploring. Is the fact that it sounds simple, [00:07:00] right? Mm-hmm. But actually it can be very difficult, like on paper. Yeah. Building trust, you know, like you, you can go on a training workshop and talk about trust and building trust, but actually that is very different to doing it in person with your team to really.

[00:07:16] Joseph: Allow your team to trust you and you to trust them. Yes. It’s not as easy as just talking about Yes. You know, trust your people. Yeah. And perhaps that’s where coaching skills become really useful because they kind of are [00:07:30] a conduit to doing some of the things that perhaps are slightly trickier. So what do you think could be some of the skills that we see in coaching that would also support leaders and organizations nowaday.

[00:07:42] Jo: I think curiosity is a big one. And is, is that a skill or an attribute? Mm. We could have a debate on that one. A skill? Yeah. Behavior. We don’t mind. Yeah. Let’s put it on the basket. So I think curiosity’s a big one around. Being curious around what other people are thinking, [00:08:00]what ideas might be out there.

[00:08:02] Jo: Uh, a belief system that you haven’t got all the ideas, I think is a, is another one as well. From a leader’s point of view, active listening. I mean, how often do we talk about active listening in, in Yeah. All aspects of leadership about really listen to people and again, you, you. The pace of work is so high that we think we’re listening, but actually we’re either listening to respond or we’re just listening to move on to the next thing.

[00:08:25] Jo: And I think you spot

[00:08:26] Joseph: on with that. Right. And what you mentioned earlier around curiosity, [00:08:30]because how coaching can support leaders is that it teaches leaders are trained leaders to be curious without judging as well. Yeah. Sometimes. So we enter that dynamic. We’re curious, but also we’ve got our own opinion that we might even think it’s better.

[00:08:45] Joseph: Yes. I think leaders who coach listen more and they don’t have the agenda. That judgment on what the individual is gonna

[00:08:55] Jo: say. Yeah, absolutely. That ability to sort of let go of what your own thoughts and [00:09:00] ideas might be. And I think there’s a difference here between if this, there’s a right and a wrong way of doing something and you know there’s governance or legislation or regulation, then you know, again, coaching doesn’t play into every scenario in every situation.

[00:09:14] Jo: It’s a tool in your toolkit, in your kit bag to be able to use. But I do think there’s more opportunities for. Leaders to, as you said, disassociate from their own ideas and open up all the thoughts, diversity [00:09:30] and ideas of other people. And I, I think, you know, just it, it’s massively intertwined with sort of the whole cultural piece anyway.

[00:09:36] Jo: But you know, you mentioned that word, trust of mm-hmm. Trust is just so implicit, and I think if you’re gonna trust people, then having that real, genuine. Interest in them as human beings, as individuals that have got a really valuable contribution to make. Again, going back to your original question around skill, is that, is that a, a skill or just a, there’s [00:10:00] definitely the skills around listening and, um, you know, reserving judgment and stuff, but I think there’s, it’s just a, a whole, it’s a belief system.

[00:10:07] Jo: I think it’s, it goes deeper than skills. I think. It’s a belief system. Yeah. That you need to hold. That really then enables you to be a really effective leader and also to take some pressure off yourself as well. Yeah. So could the skill there be self-awareness, right? Yes. Could the skill be that Massively?

[00:10:26] Jo: Yeah. Yeah. Through our process of

[00:10:27] Joseph: self-awareness, which yeah, is for [00:10:30] me, it’s what coaching is about. Yeah. We pause, we stopped, we think, we explore and reflect on what’s happening.

[00:10:36] Jo: Yeah, totally. And we can

[00:10:38] Joseph: understand. How trust impacts us. Yes. For example, you know, using trust as an

[00:10:44] Jo: example there. Yeah, yeah.

[00:10:46] Jo: Self-awareness. And I do think the best coaches are coached, you know, to raise that level of self-awareness. Coaching again, plays massively into that space of, um, helping you to reflect and [00:11:00] stop and think about those times when you’re stepping in too much and you need to just step out again and just allow the team and trust the team and what’s getting in the way of that trust and.

[00:11:11] Jo: Being prepared to be vulnerable. I think that’s the other one as well. So I think as a leader who’s a really good coach, they’ve not just got that sense of self-awareness, but they’re prepared to be vulnerable. They’re prepared to say, I don’t know, or they’re prepared to, to have coaching and to, to expose themselves a little bit in terms of their vulnerabilities and the [00:11:30] things that.

[00:11:30] Jo: That they struggle with. Um, yeah. So, you know, I get lots of leaders who really struggle on that piece of letting go on the ideas and not feeling that they need to move into solution mode. And it’s not the fact that they don’t trust their team. I think sometimes they don’t trust themselves to be able to let go.

[00:11:50] Jo: So completely, yeah, it’s, I think it just, it goes a little bit deeper. Um Mm.

[00:11:56] Joseph: And a lot of roles require problem solving, getting to [00:12:00] solutions like you said. So there’s a bit of a mindset shift. Yeah. As well. Yes. Moving to a more senior role. Well, actually you are listening more. You are, you know, your role isn’t to constantly provide solutions because as you said earlier, like the multipliers example, you’re doing that what you, what you’re essentially creating employees, people who you know, you’re numbing down.

[00:12:21] Joseph: Because you’re constantly telling them what to do. You’re constantly providing solutions. You’re not allowing them to come up with their own ideas. Yeah. There’s also an element here around [00:12:30] mentoring, right? A lot of leaders. Yeah. Mentor as well. Coaching skills or behaviors, whichever way attributes they.

[00:12:37] Joseph: Link in, like great mentors are also great coaches. Mm-hmm. They might not coach, but they know how to coach and use that in their mentoring sessions.

[00:12:46] Jo: Yeah. And, and I think being able to segue between those two, between mentoring and coaching, um, is, is a real skill. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the other way I sometimes look about this as well is, uh, [00:13:00] Leaders and managers are a, again, doing two things.

[00:13:03] Jo: They are building competence in people. Mm-hmm. And confidence in people. And you’ve gotta have the two together because clearly confidence without competence is scary cuz people are gonna be rushing off and doing things that they’re not really skilled to do. But if you develop competence in people, but no confidence or low confidence.

[00:13:25] Jo: They’re the ones that are gonna be coming, run to you all the time going. I know you’ve been through this four times, but could you just [00:13:30] explain it again? Oh, I’m just not sure. Or could you make this decision for me? And so I think. If you think about those two pockets as well, which is a little bit like situational leadership, but in a slightly different concept.

[00:13:41] Jo: But if you are building competence, I think that mentoring really plays into that space. So you know, here’s some experience you can learn from some of the things that I’ve done. Here’s what I might do in your scenario and sort of doing that. Whereas if it’s confidence, that’s when you can sort of do that segue into the like, okay, [00:14:00] so you and I both know that you know this stuff now.

[00:14:03] Jo: What’s going on here? That’s meaning that you don’t feel that you can then take that ownership piece. So yeah, and there’s definitely a, a lovely continuum there. But I think sometimes leaders can, can sort of convince themselves that maybe it’s no not the right moment to do some coaching. So I still need to do some mentoring.

[00:14:22] Jo: And it’s that moment and, and recognizing that, that time when you can start shifting to say, we’ve been through [00:14:30] this. Let, let’s move more into a coaching space. No, because it’s

[00:14:33] Joseph: easier right? To, yeah. Anyway, do mentoring. Yeah. And just tell somebody what. Or just give them the solution. It, um, yeah, and from a short term point of view, it can seem like an easy fix.

[00:14:44] Joseph: Mm-hmm. But then it starts causing issues longer term. Yeah. Your team relying so much on you that, you know, they suck up so much of your time,

[00:14:52] Jo: et cetera. Yeah. And, and I think as well, I was reflecting on this the other day when I was talking to, um, a leader and, and it’s the [00:15:00] biggest issue I would say from.

[00:15:02] Jo: All the coaching that I do with leaders whenever we do coaching practice or they’re, they’re having a reflection on some of their conversations they’re having with their team. It’s this urgency to give the solution, to give the answer and to problem solve. Mm-hmm. And I think it does stem from. I don’t know, probably hundreds of years.

[00:15:21] Jo: If we go back to, you know, where leadership and management have come from, that the role of a leader and manager was there to solve problems. [00:15:30] Yeah, and I think it’s, it’s really easy in some ways for people to see value in that as well. So if someone’s come to you with a bit of a challenge and you give what you believe is going to be the right answer and the right solution to.

[00:15:48] Jo: I suppose it, it, it leaves it to see whether that was actually the right thing to do. Mm-hmm. But you feel like you’ve added value That came to me with a problem and I have been able to help them to solve that problem. [00:16:00] And I think it’s easy to see some value that you’ve added. And I think it’s, it’s then recognizing the fact that asking questions, getting people to do their own thinking, getting them to find those solutions for themselves is actually adding more value.

[00:16:16] Jo: Uh, yeah. And as you’ve just pointed out, there’s a timeframe thing here, isn’t there? Because maybe that’s not gonna happen in the same timeframe of that 10 minute conversation. Could have had in the sort of old world of giving [00:16:30] solutions. Mm-hmm. Um, it’s helping leaders and managers to recognize that they can add value in a different way.

[00:16:36] Jo: Yeah.

[00:16:37] Joseph: And it’s the same with coaches, to be fair. Right. I think when we work Yeah, true. When we’re with new coaches, there is this urge of giving answers. Yeah. Because we are, we want to be helpful. Mm. And at times, Yeah, when people sometimes ask me, like, on the training program, um, so why don’t we give the answer?

[00:16:56] Joseph: I mean, there’s many reasons for that, but one of the things. You know, stays with me [00:17:00] is the idea that actually by giving the answer, we are dehumanizing The other person, we’re actually saying, look, I’ve got the answers. You listen to what I’m telling you because I know better. And a lot of the times, they are the ones who know the most about their life the best.

[00:17:14] Joseph: You know, what could be the better thing to do in that situation? Yes. And plus, if we keep on entering and kind of going into this dynamic, We give the answer, you know, the individual listeners does whatever we say, it’s actually quite [00:17:30] harmful as well. Yeah. Because we’re limiting their development. Mm-hmm.

[00:17:32] Joseph: Um, of course it could be not, you know, it could be the wrong advice as well. Mm-hmm. And it’s the same in leaders, right? If leaders are constantly giving answers and constantly problem solving, they’re gonna encounter the same challenges that coaches encounter if they’re being very directive in their

[00:17:49] Jo: approach.

[00:17:50] Jo: Yep. And I, I just see so many leaders that will have that con again, a couple of weeks ago I was having the same conversation. Mm-hmm. And, [00:18:00] and this person was saying, oh God, I’m just exhausted. I’m having to, I’m having to think for myself and my own work that I’m doing, and I’m having to do all the thinking for the team as well.

[00:18:10] Jo: And it’s just exhausting and un burnt out. And, um, yeah, and, and again, that sort of stepping back and going, Hmm, okay, let’s just have a look at where some of that root cause might be to get you out of this vicious cycle that you are currently stuck in. And I’m not saying that coaching was the only thing that wasn’t happening in that team.

[00:18:28] Jo: There was other things that were, were at play [00:18:30] as well. Mm-hmm. But it was definitely, you could see this. Um, dependency. I think that’s the word. It’s, yeah. Yeah. The team are very dependent on being faced with a problem, not quite sure. Go to the leader, get the answer, move on.

[00:18:43] Joseph: So there’s a question there from leaders, isn’t it?

[00:18:45] Joseph: What am I doing to perhaps fuel this type of culture within my own team? Yeah. Sometimes I feel like leaders look at culture as a very big, broad thing, but actually culture can also be split down to immediate teams, right? Yeah. And as a leader, I’m thinking, what am I [00:19:00] doing to, what culture do I want to create within my team?

[00:19:03] Joseph: Yeah.

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[00:19:29] Joseph: We [00:19:30] also have a number of C P D programs and certificates, including mentoring and super. To find out more, go to to become.org or just check the show notes.

[00:19:45] Joseph: The other question that comes to mind is around, and you alluded a little bit to it earlier, Benefits of coaching for maybe the leader, the organization, the individual. One of the things that you mentioned is around burnout, right? Yeah. I think if, if we’re constantly providing advice, if we’re [00:20:00] constantly feeling that pressure, we feel dependent at the, our employees on us, it’s gonna, it’s gonna lead to burnout.

[00:20:05] Joseph: So, Coaching helps with that. What are some of the other benefits that support leaders in

[00:20:12] Jo: terms of coaching? Well, it’s twofold, isn’t there? I think there’s a huge benefit from the, from a leadership point of view in terms of mm-hmm. Just sharing some of that. Creativity, decision making, problem solving, it becomes more of that distributed leadership piece where people are really [00:20:30] taking full ownership and accountability.

[00:20:32] Jo: Definitely if done in the right way, there is a, a, an opportunity for the leader to then be able to do the job that they’re really supposed to be there to do, which is, you know, steer the ship, get the direction, and then invest the time in developing and supporting people rather than the problem solving piece, helping people to solve those problems.

[00:20:49] Jo: But I think then you’ve, Um, a massive benefit for the organization in that people are gonna be more creative, they’re gonna be more autonomous, they’re gonna be, um, [00:21:00] thinking things through themselves so that the speed mm-hmm. And efficiency. The way that, which, I mean, let’s face it, everything seems to have sped up about 150 miles an hour in the last 20 years.

[00:21:09] Jo: If you are in an organization where you. Pace and efficiency and stuff getting done quickly, then it’s all gonna speed that up because again, if you’ve got people coming to you all the time to solve problems, you are only one person. So you are gonna end up potentially, maybe not all the time, but.

[00:21:27] Jo: Certainly some of the time being a, a blocker in a [00:21:30] bottleneck to that cuz you can’t get to it all. And then as you’ve already alluded to, you make a suggestion and actually it’s not the right one because you didn’t have a full understanding, maybe because you didn’t listen, but you didn’t have a full understanding of what the scenario was.

[00:21:42] Jo: So actually the solution wasn’t quite right and, and then it didn’t work. So I think there’s a whole pace and efficiency there. And then ultimately, and the thing I suppose I’m most interested in, You’re actually gonna grow and develop those people as well. Yeah. Which means if you’re thinking of succession planning or you know, who are your [00:22:00] next team leaders and middle managers or you know, where else in the organization could you use these talents?

[00:22:07] Jo: And, and unlocking people’s talents as well. So making sure they’re in the best place for the work that they’re doing as well. So I think all of that is also gonna be a, a massive. Individual growth and development as well. Yeah. So I think there’s a, I think there’s a win-win, win.

[00:22:23] Joseph: Well, and, and as you were saying that I, I was reflecting on my own experience, um, when I was managing bigger teams and.[00:22:30]

[00:22:30] Joseph: When I was using much more of a coaching approach, it freed up a lot of my time. Yeah. Which is the kind of what’s in it for me quite selfishly. Mm-hmm. That helped me because, um, I remember a funny story when I, um, I was the head of n indeed for this organization and the one of the directors, uh, you know, called me into a meeting.

[00:22:51] Joseph: And she said to me, she said, oh, she said, she said, I’ve noticed, and the sales team have noticed that your team always leaves on time. [00:23:00] And I said, great. Yeah. She said, but you know, the sales team, they’re always staying a bit later. So the feeling that you’re not as. Engaged. I’m like, whoa, wait a minute.

[00:23:16] Joseph: Like the fact that the team is meeting their objectives, they’re actually happier. They’ve got better work life balance should be seen as something to celebrate rather than numb down. [00:23:30] But it’s, it’s fascinating, right? Yes. Like how culturally that was seen as in a way, oh, not being engaged, but actually it was the.

[00:23:40] Joseph: And that’s a discussion that we had around, we met our goals. Um, and they, I remember saying to her, so, are you happy with what we’re doing? She’s like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Like, it’s all great. Yep. Um, so it’s interesting, right? Like once you start trusting people, once you start coaching more, instead of telling people what to do Yeah.

[00:23:57] Joseph: Then things get [00:24:00] simpler. Yeah. And everything becomes more efficient, like you said.

[00:24:03] Jo: Absolutely. Yeah. And I share the same story. You know, similar story. When I was in m and s, the best team that I had there, we were managed by this amazing, amazing woman. And yeah, we used to get together once a week, we’d talk about what we got on our plate, and then we were left to get on with it.

[00:24:18] Jo: And if we ever had any challenges, she would absolutely coach us all the way through it. And we were always seen as like, oh, that team over there, they get so much done, but they always look like they’re having so much fun at the same. Um, right. [00:24:30] Yeah. It was like, yeah. And, and everybody was like, oh, I wanna be part of that team.

[00:24:33] Jo: And so it was seen as somewhere that people wanted to go. So

[00:24:37] Joseph: we’re saying there’s benefits from an engagement point of view, productivity point of view. Right. Better relationships as well with team members. I think that was the best team that I worked in. Yeah. Because we had really

[00:24:46] Jo: trusted each other.

[00:24:47] Jo: Yeah.

[00:24:48] Joseph: What can however stop people, because I think a lot of times people know these are all buzzwords that I used. Right? Yeah. Whole coaching helps engagement, productivity, et cetera. Yeah. Mm-hmm. But for some reason it doesn’t sink in. Like there’s some [00:25:00] actual practical stumbling blocks. Mm-hmm. I think the one that we mentioned earlier, thinking about this from a short term point of view, yes.

[00:25:06] Joseph: I’d rather quickly have this conversation, rather to invest long term, what could be some of the blocks. That stop leaders from adopting micro

[00:25:15] Jo: coaching style, you think? I think, I think time’s definitely won, although, oh, I’m gonna be really challenging though. I think sometimes we use that as a bit of an excuse because mm-hmm.

[00:25:23] Jo: As you and I know, you can have a great coaching conversation in 10 minutes, you know, switching from tell to ask and [00:25:30] just asking a few questions and some prompts and curiosity, um, that doesn’t need to happen in. Hour and a half coaching session. Um, yes. So it’s looking for what I describe as coaching moments.

[00:25:43] Jo: I absolutely agree with you though, that I think there is a belief that, ah, we’ve not got much time and, you know, deadlines approaching. I, I’ll just tell them because that’s what’s needed at this moment in time. And I’m not saying sometimes that will absolutely be the case. It’s just really questioning yourself is whether it’s mm-hmm.

[00:25:58] Jo: Always the case. Um, [00:26:00] I think the other bit we talked about earlier is this unlearning piece, the belief system that. Adding value means giving the answer or giving my suggestions or giving my ideas and changing that belief system. Unlearning. Years of potentially what you’ve been told is good leadership and management.

[00:26:19] Jo: I think the other difficulty is that may have got you success. Mm-hmm. But it’s how we measure success. So is success just delivering the results or is success [00:26:30] about. That win-win win where yes, the organization’s benefiting, but actually, am I really growing as a leader and am I growing my team as, as human beings and people and maxing their potential and making sure that they feel good about their work and they’re enjoying their work as well as being productive.

[00:26:46] Jo: So I think measuring our success could be part of it as well. And

[00:26:50] Joseph: interestingly with that, measuring when it comes to measurement. Yeah. Sometimes. Leaders might not know what they’re really measuring because there is still such, uh, confusion [00:27:00] around what is coaching and what is mentoring, for example. Yeah.

[00:27:02] Joseph: So some leaders might be thinking that, oh yeah, I’m a great coach. Mm-hmm. But actually what they’re doing a lot is mentoring. Mm-hmm. Rather, so they’re not measuring the right thing.

[00:27:11] Jo: Essentially either. Yeah, definitely. I think, I think how we measure our success and you, you, you took this right back to the culture piece.

[00:27:18] Jo: So some, some organizations are very fixed on KPIs and results and, and again, just questioning. Does that really give us [00:27:30] that balanced scorecard of how we are, or triple bottom line or whatever, you know, are, are we measuring the right things? Because if all we’re doing is just measuring results and output and outcome, it’s gonna be really hard.

[00:27:44] Jo: Yeah. To drive a coaching culture through the organization, you need to have different metrics of success on that as well.

[00:27:50] Joseph: Yeah. Yeah. There could also be an expectation, I’m just guessing a few things here, but there could be an expectations from the organization that a coaching is easy. Yeah. And that [00:28:00] some leaders and managers already know how to coach Yeah.

[00:28:02] Joseph: As well. Yeah. So they kind of go, oh, coach your team. It’s part of the job description. Mm. But then they’re not provided the right tools to be able to have

[00:28:09] Jo: those conversations. Yep. Spot on. And then that point that we said earlier around that ability to. Reflect and really question, am I coaching or is it advice and guidance disguised as, you know, pretend coaching or Yeah.

[00:28:23] Jo: Um, you know, I know a lot of leaders out there who really, really want to be good coaches, so they really, really do wanna do [00:28:30] it. And it takes quite a lot of honing of that skill again, because you’re trying to unlearn. I think if you. Come into leadership and management knowing that coaching was the thing that you needed to do, it’d be so much easier.

[00:28:41] Jo: I think that’s

[00:28:42] Joseph: what happens as well. When people go on training courses, they go on a training course about coaching skills. Mm-hmm. And they go back into their organization. Yep. And they start using coaching skills and the employee goes. What’s wrong with you? Yeah,

[00:28:53] Jo: you’ve all got weird now. Yeah, yeah.

[00:28:55] Jo: You’ve all got weird. This is like, what’s going on here? So I always say to [00:29:00]people, you know, you need to let people know cuz otherwise, cuz the one thing you’re gonna do to break trust is people suddenly not knowing what they’re going to get when they come to you. Yeah. So I think you need to be really open with your team to say, you know, hey, I’ve, you know, I’ve been doing some reflecting and I’ve been thinking about, you know, the way that I lead and manage you.

[00:29:18] Jo: And, you know, you know, I’ve, I’ve recognized that maybe sometimes. Too many answers. Whatever your words and language are that you know feels appropriate for you, but let them know that this might be something that you do. [00:29:30] Yeah. Completely. At least they can sort of go, all right. Oh, I see, I see what you’re doing now.

[00:29:35] Jo: Um, but that’s why asking me all these questions. Yeah. But equally, I think, you know, again, it comes back to, um, there needs to be a right moment because, If it is literally where do I find the file for something or where do I find whatever, don’t go into coaching mode with like, oh, let me ask you a few curious questions to see whether you, you know, can do this.

[00:29:54] Jo: Yeah. So I think that it, it’s capturing those coaching moments where yeah, you know, people have got the competence. [00:30:00] Maybe there’s some confidence going on. Yeah. Or you know, that there’s maybe something underneath that, or that people have got some good ideas and it, and then it’s catching yourself, isn’t it?

[00:30:09] Jo: Mm-hmm. Um, in that moment I like. But yeah, you need to let your people know that that’s what you’re gonna.

[00:30:14] Joseph: I like to think of it as, um, are they asking about knowledge? Yes. Why are they asking about a skill or behavior? Yes. And if it’s, if they’re asking about knowledge, like where is the file? There’s one answer.

[00:30:24] Joseph: Yes, yes. The file is in a particular place. Yes. Um, so I think then you could do [00:30:30] more mentoring, but if they’re asking about a skill they want to develop, our behavior, they want to change, or an attitude, et cetera, then maybe coaching is much more appropriate. As we’re getting quite close towards the end of our podcast, are there any tips that you might want to, um, suggest or provide to leaders who are thinking about using a more coaching style in the way of

[00:30:49] Jo: managing?

[00:30:50] Jo: Yeah, so I think the first one is, uh, what we just said a moment ago is that if you genuinely want to do this, then let your team know that you’d [00:31:00] like to move into more of a coaching style. Mm-hmm. And alongside that, either sign up to some training around, around coaching. And so you, you then fully understand.

[00:31:10] Jo: What is coaching, what does it look like? Because as you said, you might have a real good intention of wanting to do it and do the right thing, but it’s so easy to be either disguising it as something else or e slipping into the, the old habits and then getting coaching yourself and, and, and actually having coaching yourself could be the, the sort of [00:31:30] training in itself in terms of.

[00:31:32] Jo: Having that opportunity to reflect, it might not be a training course you need to go on. And I do think there’s a, there’s a lack of training programs for leaders as coaches. You know, there’s often, you know, lots of of coaching programs, not yours, Joseph, but I think lots of coaching programs are offered as like, oh, you’re gonna go and become a coach.

[00:31:49] Jo: Bit like, you know, a bit like you and me, you know, you’re gonna become an external coach. And we talk about clients and, and contracts and chemistry and all of that. And I, I, a lot of that doesn’t [00:32:00] land with leaders so, It’s finding the right program for, for leadership that you can do that. And we do

[00:32:07] Joseph: have a coaching Skills for Leaders program as well.

[00:32:09] Joseph: A little plug

[00:32:10] Jo: in. Excellent. Yeah, go for it. That’s what I said doesn’t include you, but yeah, I, I don’t think there’s enough of those around. Not that we want them because we want ’em all to come to you, Joseph. Um. Mm-hmm. But, Yeah, I, I think then, then it needs to be tailored because otherwise there’s too much of that.

[00:32:26] Jo: It doesn’t feel relevant stuff in there. You’re right.

[00:32:28] Joseph: Otherwise, it becomes more about [00:32:30] contracting for coaching and whole hour and a half coaching session Right now. Sometimes it’s just about how do I, and it could be just as quick as a day course. Right. Literally just basics of coaching. Yep. Learn just some structure.

[00:32:43] Joseph: Yep. Uh, and then if you find yourself that, that is useful, you could go on a more intensive course. Been coaching skills, yes. But at times all it takes is about a day just to get

[00:32:51] Jo: you going. Yep. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. Just with the key principles. Amazing. Thank you so much, Joe. It’s been, thank you for the opportunity to talk about my, no, thank [00:33:00] you.

[00:33:00] Jo: My little passion of, uh, leaders as coaches. So yes, thank you for 20 minutes of indulging. It’s very nice.

[00:33:08] Joseph: Thank you for being here for sparing 20 minutes of your time, cuz I know you’ve got a very busy schedule,

[00:33:13] Jo: so No, likewise. No. That’s perfect. Thank you so much and see you soon. See you soon. Thank you.

[00:33:21] Joseph: I hope you enjoyed that episode with Joe Holiday talking about leadership coaching.

[00:33:26] Joseph: I found it particularly helpful reflecting back on the [00:33:30] way that we work with leaders within organizations, not just in the coaching session, but how we can promote healthier habits when. Side of the coaching session working with their team members. If you did enjoy this episode, it’ll be great if you could leave a review and also tell your friends and colleagues about it.

[00:33:48] Joseph: All of the word of mouth referrals are very much so welcome. Until I see you next time, I hope you stay well and take care of yourselves.[00:34:00]