Podcast episode with Patrick Mullarkey Mentor

In this episode, our host Joseph Grech is joined by Patrick Mullarkey, an experienced learning and leadership professional who works in startups and scale-ups within the tech sector. Patrick shares his insights into coaching practice and the way that it supports leadership practices and organizational development. 

On this episode they:

  • Explore coaching misconceptions, including the belief that anyone can coach and the role of learning professionals in coaching
  • Delve into the concept of conscious incompetence in coaching and its implications
  • Explore challenges in democratizing coaching within organizations and the role of external coaches
  • Discuss the importance of ethical practice and integration of coaching principles
  • 0:00 – Introductions and welcome
  • 01:10 – Patrick’s background in learning and leadership
  • 05:25 – Discussion on coaching misconceptions
  • 13:40 – Unpacking the concept of conscious incompetence in coaching
  • 18:55 – Challenges in democratizing coaching within organizations
  • 23:30 – The role of external coaches and ethical practice in coaching
  • 31:15 – Integrating coaching principles and models ethically
  • 36:40 – Conclusion

[00:00:00] Joseph: Hello everyone and welcome to our latest episode of Coaching In Focus. I am joined today by the wonderful Patrick Malarkey. Patrick, how are you doing today?

[00:00:15] Patrick: I’m great. I’m good. It’s been a good week. Life is good. I’m talking to you which makes life even better. And my week all the brighter. So yeah, how are you?

[00:00:22] Patrick: You good?

[00:00:23] Joseph: I’m here. I’m doing very well. And thanks for being here today. Patrick is a learning and leadership professional. He works across a number of different sectors and most recently in startups and scale ups in tech. As a learning professional, Patrick and I have worked together for quite a few years actually and Patrick also has an interest in coaching and mentoring, particularly how these support leadership practices, leadership development across organizations.

[00:00:50] Joseph: So I thought it would be great for us to have a conversation in relation to this. So Patrick, thank you for spending a bit of time with me today. I really appreciate it. Maybe tell us a little bit about yourself, your work, what are some type of L& D and coaching stuff that you do?

[00:01:05] Patrick: I like to view myself as being like consciously incompetent to a certain degree of coaching and we might come on to this a little bit.

[00:01:11] Patrick: I’m a learning professional by trade. 10 years working on learning development in various roles, managerial consultancies, public sector and so on. But most recently, found a home in tech essentially. And I love the sector and the kind of, the people and the teams you get to work with, and it’s a very dynamic environment.

[00:01:29] Patrick: How and where kind of coaching comes into some of this? I think there’s lots of nuance in coaching, but there’s also a lot of misunderstanding sometimes around it. And I think sometimes organizations and learning teams, we suffer from like, there’s a lack of barriers to entry. in parts of coaching, which I think sometimes skews the views of what a good or great coach can look like.

[00:01:49] Patrick: For me, I feel a confident say, you know, about my expertise and ability around being a learning leadership management professional, whatever label you use. But I’ve got like a respect and reverence in terms of what good coaching looks like. The notion around What makes a great coach, what effective coaching looks like, also how that scales in organizations, because it doesn’t necessarily always does, which is tricky, can be quite drastically different to the realities of what people say or how people present themselves as a exec, life coach, however you want to describe it.

[00:02:25] Patrick: Um, I do think that’s changing, fortunately. I feel like the last, uh, It’s been refined and people have been more deliberate about it, but I believe there’s massive, massive value to how aware you apply your skills, um, and using the coach as a resource and support through that journey.

[00:02:42] Joseph: Oh, thank you, Patrick, for sharing that.

[00:02:43] Joseph: So much richness, I feel, and what you said, and I found myself like writing things down because I want to ask you questions about it. Um, and I can echo that sentiment having worked in L& D and how I got into coaching in a way I found myself being. I’m not saying he pushed, I wanted to do it, but it feels like it’s a natural progression for NLD professionals to move from Working with groups to working individually.

[00:03:07] Joseph: And sometimes there isn’t that development, that training, that focus on how we use coaching skills differently from training. We kind of go, well, you train big groups, train in quotes. One person. Yeah.

[00:03:23] Patrick: Yeah.

[00:03:23] Joseph: You mentioned that word conscious incompetence in relation to coaching. Uh, let’s unpick that a bit.

[00:03:28] Patrick: Yeah, yeah. So I won’t bore people if you’re listening to this part You’ve probably got a sense of that cycle of like consciously incompetence. I’m gonna get the order wrong So I’m not gonna try and repeat it. Put it in the show notes. Yeah, the classic put it in the show notes. What, how, why do I describe myself as falling into that bracket is that I’ve got a notion around kind of certain coaching models, uh, in conversations and techniques, but in terms of formalized deliberate practice for myself as a coach or mentor, it’s been quite piecemeal and not deliberate.

[00:04:06] Patrick: As strategic as say, I think of some of the individuals you’ve had on this podcast previously and people who are full time coaches who have been accredited via programs that you run or elsewhere. They’ve got a very deliberate set of toolkits and frameworks they can refer back on, but also that sense of deliberate practice.

[00:04:24] Patrick: And there’s something here, and this is where it gets a bit gray, I think, and this is where the barriers to entry suddenly lower. There’s something around temperament. There’s something around application of skills that are akin to counselors as well that you bring in. And then suddenly you bring certain coaches start bringing techniques around.

[00:04:42] Patrick: So for example, cognitive behavior therapy and stuff like that just to help challenge limiting beliefs and all of that stuff I find fascinating. But I am, I feel as though across the board, there’s very levels of competence, but I’d bucket it as like, I would not feel as though I’m an expert, which is partly why I say to my stakeholders when I work with them, here’s my benefit of value add.

[00:05:02] Patrick: Here’s the areas like, okay. You, I’m nailed on succeeding for you, but here’s the gaps as well. We might not need these skills or gaps for our projects or in the organization, but let’s be really deliberate. So we’re kind of on the same page. And then the flip side is as well, to your point earlier, and this might be a slight tangent is, um, I’ve seen it a lot as a natural progression for learning professionals who’ve gone from these group settings to gradually more intimate, refined, single group experiences as they perhaps they’ve gone up the management chain.

[00:05:34] Patrick: They become nearer C suite or senior leadership roles. And those can be really fulfilling and as well, frankly, commercially more impactful for your bank balance, but they are exposing as well. And again, that’s where the piece around, I suppose. You’ve got to treat access to those opportunities as a consequence, not a reward.

[00:05:53] Patrick: So it’s a consequence of your behaviors, your, uh, deliberate practice and stuff you’re doing. Not just the reward for tenure or service sometimes or framing yourself as some sort of I hesitate to use the phrase life coach. I’m not trying to damn any One in that element of the coaching industry, but presenting yourself as, as a self declared coach.

[00:06:13] Patrick: Yeah. I think it’d be tricky.

[00:06:14] Joseph: That’s the trick of it, isn’t it? Whether you’re a life coach or executive coach or business coaches of a aspect. It’s how, because the industry is unregulated. So to a degree, anyone can call themselves a coach. If we think from an L& D point of view, like the CIPD has got quite a strong hold in terms of a qualification pathway.

[00:06:32] Joseph: Yeah, we do have that from coaching, like the ICF and other awarding bodies. But there’s a lot of differences. Like if you do an ILM program in coaching, it is very organizational based. It’s very much so transactional. So you might probably not go into cognitive behavioral work or limiting beliefs. But if you’re doing an ICF one, which is broader.

[00:06:53] Joseph: But there isn’t this unified kind of standard that L& D professionals or anyone can just pick up on and get trained on. There’s a lot of different training programs, lots of ways how you can become a coach.

[00:07:05] Patrick: Yeah, and it’s partly as well, and that’s before, it’s funny, that’s what I thought you were saying then, that’s before you even put like regional variants in, like of like say, established providers or bodies in the U.

[00:07:18] Patrick: S. versus EMEA and so on and so forth. And then there’s even like the cultural rapport pieces that layer underneath around like, you know, how people interact and around communication and culture and so on. But again, that’s why as well, I think it’s really valuable for like a learning function. If you have a learning professional who’s moving in that direction and goes down one of the paths you’ve outlined, fantastic, like they’re refining their craft towards an outcome or goal of being perhaps a full time coach or that being a key feature of their offer as an employee, but this strength and power and saying, actually, like, you know, I, I find those areas fascinating, but I’m not in this point in the career where I’m about to, you know, Narrow in and do a specific qualification.

[00:07:57] Patrick: I might be in the next 18 months full depreciation to anyone who sees my LinkedIn in the next two years. You’re always welcome to join one of our Yeah, I knew that. A warm lead for you Joseph.

[00:08:08] Joseph: You’ll be very welcome.

[00:08:12] Patrick: Joseph will also include his mate’s rates discount in the show notes too. Yeah. Um, but again, I don’t think there’s frictional tension.

[00:08:22] Patrick: In between, if I was to say the two camps of learning and coaching professionals per se, but I have seen certain stakeholders in the learning camp who not, it’s threatened the right word. I don’t know, but like slight cynicism around like, Oh, what does that coach do? Is it, isn’t it just the grow model? Is that it?

[00:08:38] Patrick: Is that all they got? And it could be, but actually more often than not, there’s a lot more to it that they actually bring to the, to the table challenge. I think in organizations that are. Changing rapidly or growing fast, like, you know, that’s the story of my previous three or four years is, um, trying to get coaching practices that scale is very, very difficult because just the cost involved and in the quality control.

[00:09:05] Patrick: And I think there’s some organizations and some companies who are doing some brilliant stuff. Uh, using technology to address that challenge. And I think it’s, it will not become as big a challenge as it currently feels today, but I can see as well, like the notion of democratizing coaching can be tricky ’cause giving it to the c-suite, senior leaders, you’ll see ime you can, you can, the impacts can resonate really clearly.

[00:09:29] Patrick: And then if you try and spread that out over hundreds of people, that’s trickier to manage, but also deliver on. Did

[00:09:38] Joseph: you know that at Become, we offer a number of different coach training programs to people just like you. If you’re new to coaching, there is a level one diploma in integrative coaching. If you’ve been coaching for a while, or perhaps you’re already an ACC coach, then we have the advanced diploma in integrative coaching, which leads all the way to the PCC credential by the ICF.

[00:10:01] Joseph: We also have a number of CPD programs and certificates, including mentoring and supervision. To find out more, go to tubicam. org or just check the show notes.

[00:10:18] Joseph: There’s an analogy that came to mind actually. It’s like where you have a really good Sales practitioner and then they get promoted to a sales manager, but actually they don’t understand this, that like they, that they’ve not been trained as a manager. And I think sometimes in L& D, we’re a really good trainer facilitator.

[00:10:34] Joseph: We, we then start doing coaching, but we don’t get trained into coaching and there’s different, you know, there’s the expectation that we can, we can do both. The other aspect is around democratizing coaching. And. That is a challenge because in a lot of organization coaching is offered at like at exec levels.

[00:10:54] Joseph: What I’m finding is there’s a lot more kind of train the trainer approaches where L& D is coming in and let’s say training line managers on. I do generally believe that not everyone It needs to be a coach. I mean, kind of like, I do think everyone would benefit with coaching skills, but just, uh, like knowing the growth model is better than not knowing anything, knowing some CBT kind of type discussions that you could have with your team members is better than not knowing anything.

[00:11:19] Joseph: So a little bit, I feel like goes a long way. Um, and an L and D I’m finding that we’re doing. We’re doing some of that. Like a lot of NLP practitioners are becoming coaches so that they then train their own managers on how to have coaching conversations rather than just an hour coaching session. I mean, what do you think?

[00:11:37] Joseph: Are you seeing this more in practice?

[00:11:39] Patrick: Yeah. And part of it is skills building for the individual concerned. Like that’s definitely a motivator, but there is a perception around if, you know, that train the trainer approach. I’m not necessarily It has its moments depending on the topic or task. I always say to people though, that can work, but let’s be conscious around who’s your trainer for because you’re training out their preferences and biases as well.

[00:12:07] Patrick: If we’re comfortable, whatever they’re bringing to the table. And I, and when I say that, I include myself in that is like, you know, I’ve got certain preferences and work style facilitation, however you want to label it. Are we happy to duplicate those? and amplify those behaviors. If so, great. But if not, or we have a risk or concern we need to manage, let’s have that conversation.

[00:12:29] Patrick: And this kind of feeds into more broadly, like, have you done an effective analysis or discovery piece at the start? I think as well, frankly, that there’s, I hesitate to say this, but like, I think sometimes we, I say we, learning industry, learning professionals, learning leaders, we have to deal with our stakeholders perception, their own experience of education and learning.

[00:12:52] Patrick: So, for example, I’m going to make wild generalizations now just for the benefit of this, but just stay with me, Lister and Joseph. C suite individuals have got to their point in time in their career via certain experiences, projects, and outcomes. Their point of reference, therefore, for success, i. e. how do we help people get to my level, is based on their own lived experience.

[00:13:16] Patrick: So that might be a trainer trainer approach, but it’s not necessarily the most effective in terms of dealing or rolling out behaviours. And then that’s where it gets interesting to say, well look, and go back to my preferences and bias piece. Would we benefit from using a third party or a supplier to scale this up and out?

[00:13:34] Patrick: I often think organizations are quite receptive to a conversation around not an ongoing engagement like people joke about like a supplier being like a barnacle on the side of a ship you just can’t get it off once it’s on in but taking like a phased approach and being honest with suppliers say look first three to six months We’re going to be leveraging so many of your people to roll this out during our embed phase.

[00:13:58] Patrick: But gradually a metric for success is growing our own and embedding the behaviors that we want to mirror. If the people you’re getting in the supplies are good, effective at what they do, I don’t think it’s, I think it might be overambitious to try and match their expertise, but try and get like 78 percent of the way, and then the 20 percent might be nuanced, that’s organizational specific.

[00:14:22] Patrick: Sorry, it was a bit of a tangent. I’m not sure I’ve answered your question.

[00:14:25] Joseph: I’m also getting the feeling around, you know, Some of the advantages of using, let’s say, external coaches for the coaching itself, not just about building the programs and the strength trainer approach, but also this idea that that’s why a lot of organizations still kind of really rely on external coaches because of

[00:14:43] Patrick: that.

[00:14:43] Patrick: Yeah. And they play the role of a neutral third party. I think my most prior to where I am now, my second to last organization, there was like. elements of like a coaching program that was rolled out. I can think of three or four individuals who continued the engagement with that coach privately, not like on an ongoing yearly basis year on year, but like for a specific period, because what they found was the program that brought them together as a coach, coachee had a specific aim or outcome.

[00:15:11] Patrick: As the coaching relationship developed, they found really, you know, The problem outcome, the organization one, was actually not what the coachee needed help with, and that was kind of separate. But they wanted to address both, so they’re exploring both. They couldn’t have done that, say, in the same way or same effectiveness of say, me as a fellow peer employee was the coach.

[00:15:31] Patrick: They’d get some value, but they perhaps wouldn’t have gone to as vulnerable, as sensitive in areas. That they did in the end, some of those individuals, I won’t breach any confidence for going in detail about it. And again, going back to your point around that we talked about earlier on quality, I would be able to get them so far in terms of that, the depth and value of that coaching interaction.

[00:15:52] Patrick: But someone who has that wealth of experience qualifications was able to go really deep and in a way that was, um, I don’t know if safeguarding is the right way to kind of bring it up here, but. You, you can uncover some really deep stuff that’s sensitive linked to someone’s identity and personality not just their professionalism and their skill set But there could be anchors you’re raising from the ground that have created limiting beliefs or behaviors that have held them back for decades That’s again, that’s where you need someone who’s not just, you know, effective at, you know, looking like you Um, signals and signs around safeguarding or challenging conversations, but it knows how to navigate those.

[00:16:32] Patrick: And, and again, quality of coaches bringing out some of those counseling skills as well. That’s where you see it shine through. Don’t get me wrong. Sometimes it’s just not feasible. And also it’s not the top priority to, to use coach suppliers in your in house space. But, um, look at it this way. If, um, this is too simple, but I had a friend who used to talk about it in this context, if I break my arm.

[00:16:56] Patrick: Do I go to a GP to then get triaged and referred, or do I go to hospital to speak to the arm specialist? If I’ve got a choice, I’m going to the hospital to speak to the arm specialist, same way if I’ve got like a coaching engagement who someone’s gonna work through a challenge, would I rather do that or use the learning professional who might have mixed ability in that space?

[00:17:16] Joseph: What’s really interesting in what you’re saying is though your awareness of ethical practice Right. And I feel that’s quite unique because sometimes when I’m speaking to coaches who might not be accredited or might not be, uh, have been fully trained, that’s one thing that I noticed there isn’t as much.

[00:17:31] Joseph: So it’s really nice to see that in you, this idea around safeguarding and ethical practice. And you know, the example that you said around not being to enter into dialogue around some sensitive information, that’s also the coach’s awareness. of their own boundaries, uh, in the coaching relationship. So there is also that professionalism and that increased self awareness.

[00:17:54] Joseph: Do you see what I mean by that?

[00:17:56] Patrick: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s interesting when, um, I hate the phrase, but people recognize it. Like the beauty parade you go through sometimes with suppliers and they’re presenting like their model and products and how it fits. I always do it whether it’s a learning or coaching thing.

[00:18:10] Patrick: I’ll say looking forward to the meeting. By the way, here’s a list of FAQs. Can you clarify what? mechanisms or tools you have in place for some of these questions. And there’ll always be something around what do you do when you have a safeguarding risk or concern? How do you manage that in a way that, uh, doesn’t compromise integrity and the confidentiality of the relationship?

[00:18:31] Patrick: How or whenever have you dealt with instances in the past? And it’s always interesting. I’ve raised that in sales calls sometimes with the sellers, the sales team for the coach and provider. And when you throw that out there, that’s quite telling because the amount of them that say, Hey, I’ve got no clue.

[00:18:45] Patrick: What do you mean by that? I don’t quite understand. Versus the sales teams who say, we’ve got a process for that. I don’t have its hand. I can email it straight after this call and I can get a coach to talk you through it. It’s really important because the thing is, is, you know, I’m going to butcher this phrase.

[00:19:00] Patrick: You can correct it. You’ll probably notice better than I was like, you’re not coaching the problem. You’re coaching the person in front of you. You’re dealing with all their You know, sometimes there’s not just a stakeholder relationships in a professional life, but their personal life too. And their own, um, I use that word again, their sense of identity, their persona and where they see themselves.

[00:19:19] Patrick: So that like, again, this is all coming back around to that point of like, you know, patriarchy can do apply coaching principles and grow model behaviors, whatever it might be a framework. But Dealing with some of these really, really like detailed facets of an individual requires like, you know, a certain level of professionalism that you should not accept anything less.

[00:19:45] Joseph: That element of coaching is not just a transactional activity where you are saying, you know, typically like grow, I find is used in a very transactional way. Like, what’s your problem? Whereabouts are you with it now? What can you do about it? Let’s move on.

[00:19:58] Patrick: The end user, the coachee, is very aware of that.

[00:20:02] Patrick: Like the proliferation of the model. And again, this isn’t a critique of the model. It’s just, it’s out there everywhere. And I seen it the flip side, like, um, it’s like tangent. There’s been like two or three times I’ve used counselling services at various points in my lives. I remember the second time I could laugh about it now, but the way the counsellor managed the conversation, I was like, we’re doing a grow model here.

[00:20:22] Patrick: Hang on. What? Like, And we’re literally, we’re navigating through this so we don’t overrun on time. And I even got a fact sheet at the end, like this little crib sheet. I was like, hang on, what is this? And I was like, it was a great example, like the same principle of like, um, I think sometimes your intrinsic motivation will come out quite starkly in your behavior.

[00:20:41] Patrick: Again, like the grow model is fantastic. We can, by the way, if anyone’s listened to this, we’re not bashing the grow model. It’s just kind of, it’s just so familiar and normally present.

[00:20:51] Joseph: A lot of our listeners though, just, and this is not, this sometimes come up, that’s one thing that we actually talk about quite a lot on the Diploma that The whole reason why I created the Diploma is because in my experience, I was putting the model in front of the person.

[00:21:03] Joseph: I learned Grow when I was just using Grow all the time. Then I learned CBT stuff and I was using those all the time. And I found it was really highly unethical. So, irrelevant of any model that we’re choosing, if we’re stamping out that model onto the individual, It doesn’t feel right. And the integrative diploma focuses on how do we integrate coaching principles?

[00:21:23] Joseph: How do we integrate your own values? How do we integrate all of these different models are psychologically evidence based in a way that supports the client and not just. You and the session to run the session.

[00:21:35] Patrick: Yeah, and that’s interesting then because suddenly you’re talking about moving away from a more transactional moment, which can have value to something that’s sustainable beyond the conversation, because if you’re exploring around my values, my drivers, my principles of behavior as well.

[00:21:50] Patrick: You feed it into like standards of performance and professionalism and personal, not standards of personality, that isn’t a thing. Um, but suddenly that those are much broader, I suppose, um, bigger things to, to adapt and change and they’re sustainable. Beyond the conversation as well. That’s quite interesting.

[00:22:07] Joseph: Yeah. Yeah, very much so. Um, what do you feel, uh, some, perhaps we already talking about some of them, but what could be some common misconceptions that L& D professionals, you know, may have about coaching?

[00:22:20] Patrick: There’s a contradiction to what I’m going to say, but I’ll share it. One is that anyone can do it or on the flip side, learning professionals a better place to do it than say, L& D.

[00:22:32] Patrick: another part of the organization or, or, or a team. That second part, let me just speak on that for a moment. This is my own bias coming out. So I worked at a management consultancy years ago and, um, I had a colleague in the marketing team. I got on really well with her. We didn’t work that close together, but always grabbed a coffee now and again.

[00:22:50] Patrick: And then she mentioned, she said, Oh, We were talking about some of the projects I was working on and I said something about coaching or workshop delivery, something like that. She said, Oh, I’m doing my coaching qualification. And I remember my reaction. It was so ignorant. I was like, you, you’re a market, what are you talking about?

[00:23:05] Patrick: And, um, again, a sign of how immature and junior I was at that point. And she was like, yeah, cause like, you know, I like, I want to apply some of this to like, just my own sideline side hustle, but also my day to day work. And it really brought to life to me that conversation that just, we used to laugh about it since, but it’s like, I think there’s a misconception sometimes around, we are sometimes operating at a higher.

[00:23:29] Patrick: standard of, I’ll use that word again, competency, or we’re starting with a higher floor than some of our peers in other functions or areas. Some of the best coaches or application of coaching skills I’ve seen have been in from quite technical business areas with leaders who just get the notion of actually being of service to the person in front of them and how that informs their behavior.

[00:23:54] Patrick: Then applying good skills from that. But I think that’s, that’s like, it’s more of an, I’d say as well, like I, again, my preferences, my biases are coming out here. So anyone listening, don’t shout too much if you disagree. I think that like learning has that, learning functions have that more broadly around So, for example, facilitation, I’ve seen it with certain learning functions, try and train, say, presentation skills that are just an easy one to talk about.

[00:24:19] Patrick: Try and train a population up on that skill set when actually some of them are more capable than the people facilitating and running the learning or education in that space. So, I think the notion that somehow we’re starting with a head start because of our day job, um, is a misconception. Being curious and intellectually curious.

[00:24:38] Patrick: around your own development and the person in front of you will bridge many of those gaps.

[00:24:43] Joseph: It’s the idea that the emotional maturity in a way is more important, isn’t it, than the role. And we do get that. We have a lot of marketeers through the program, a lot of lawyers, um, teachers, all sorts of different professions.

[00:24:55] Joseph: And people will say, I just want to do it for myself because I want to communicate better with other people. I want to understand myself better.

[00:25:00] Patrick: If anyone I know has gone through some sort of program, they’ve come out the other side saying, Their expectation was one thing, but the outcome was the self awareness that they didn’t, they hoped for or did not expect is leveled up so much more.

[00:25:16] Patrick: And that’s powerful. And then once you’re informed of that stuff, you can’t go back. You can only get forward. So that’s good stuff.

[00:25:22] Joseph: We’re getting pretty close towards the end of this podcast. Patrick. And it’s been wonderful talking to you about, you know, some of these applied coaching principles, like in practice.

[00:25:33] Joseph: Um, so thank you for sharing, you know, some of your knowledge. Like I appreciate it. I know it’s going to be something that our viewers will also really enjoy listening to.

[00:25:41] Patrick: Nice. No, it’s been great to talk about it. And you and I know we could talk about for hours about this and it’s all just to acknowledge you.

[00:25:47] Patrick: As someone, a massive help in my career as, as like a coach, a manager, a leader. And, um, it’s so great just to see what you’re doing now with the pod and the business and beyond and stuff like this. We need more coaches like yourself, so. Oh, thanks Patrick. And

[00:26:01] Joseph: to yourself, you know, um, Stop

[00:26:03] Patrick: it. Stop

[00:26:04] Joseph: it.

[00:26:05] Patrick: Everyone’s been sick, cringing, listening to us now.

[00:26:09] Joseph: No, they’re not, they’re not at all. But thank you once again, Patrick, and lovely to see you.

[00:26:13] Patrick: Cool.

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