Podcast Episode for Coaching in Focus

In this episode of Coaching in Focus, host Joseph Grech welcomes Georgia Russell, founder of Spinach, to explore the transformative power of coaching in modern organisations. 

They discuss the shortcomings of traditional learning methods and why coaching is poised to be the future of impactful learning. Georgia shares insights into the unique challenges faced by learners today, the importance of personalised coaching, and the benefits of democratising coaching across all organisational levels. 

Discover how shorter, focused coaching sessions can drive sustainable personal and professional growth. Tune in to learn how coaching can help develop more resourceful, empowered, and self-aware individuals within your organisation. 

Learn more about Spinach and how they’re supporting organisations here.


  • [00:00:00] Introduction: Joseph introduces Georgia Russell and the episode’s focus on coaching and learning in organizations.
  • [00:00:46] Impactful Learning: Georgia discusses why traditional learning methods are failing and how coaching can bridge the gap.
  • [00:02:26] Challenges with Traditional Learning: Insights into why long-form learning and one-size-fits-all approaches are ineffective.
  • [00:03:24] Learning Transfer Equation: Understanding the importance of embedding and retaining learned knowledge.
  • [00:05:20] Personalised Learning: How coaching caters to individual contexts and learning needs.
  • [00:07:22] Coaching vs. Problem-Solving: The difference between coaching the person and fixing the problem.
  • [00:12:54] Empowering Clients: Joseph and Georgia discuss the goal of making clients self-sufficient and resourceful.
  • [00:15:33] Organisational Perspective: The importance of supporting middle managers and the concept of the “forgotten middle.”
  • [00:19:39] Democratizing Coaching: Benefits of making coaching accessible to all levels within an organization.
  • [00:22:43] Spinach’s Unique Approach: Georgia explains how Spinach provides affordable and effective coaching through 25-minute sessions.
  • [00:24:01] Accountability and Focus: How shorter, finite coaching sessions enhance accountability and focus.

[00:00:00] Joseph: Hi everyone, and welcome on today’s episode of Coaching in Focus. I’m Joseph Grech, your host, and today I am delighted to welcome Georgia Russell, who is a coach and founder of a coaching company called Spinach. I met Georgia through a mutual friend of ours a few months ago, and I got really excited about how passionate Georgia is.

[00:00:26] Joseph: as well about the power of coaching. So, we immediately connected and Georgia has very kindly agreed to be on today’s podcast with me. And I’m really inspired by Georgia’s work and I look forward to discussing this with Georgia today. So, Georgia, how are you doing?

[00:00:41] Georgia: Yeah, I’m good, thank you. I’m, um, nearly about to go on holiday so, uh, I’m feeling high energy today.

[00:00:46] Joseph: So maybe, shall we start with this idea about impactful learning and why you believe that learning in organisations in a way. is broken and that coaching really represents the future of impactful learning.

[00:01:00] Georgia: Um, yeah, absolutely. I guess to, to look at why I think coaching is the future, um, I guess you really have to sit back and reflect on why do I think current learning strategies are broken or ineffective?

[00:01:14] Georgia: So I think there was like a statistic, uh, it was released a couple of years ago, and it said that 75 percent of learners are dissatisfied with the solutions, the learning solutions that they’re being given, which is really quite shocking that it’s 75 percent and actually really really sad to think that it’s 75 percent because I know a load of learning and development and specialists put so much time, energy, money into the solutions that they roll out within the workplace.

[00:01:43] Georgia: So, so first it’s, it’s sad. And I guess if I reflect on why, I think learning solutions or strategies aren’t currently working. I think it comes down to a few things. We’re looking at sort of traditional learning and especially post COVID. If you look at modern learning preferences now, just traditional solutions, the way they’re designed don’t work for learners.

[00:02:05] Georgia: So if you look at long form learning, so maybe like an eight week program, that you have to go on. That’s a lot of time out of your diary and most people are extremely busy doing their job, managing a team of people, um, and I think like the number one biggest blocker to engaging with learning it is time.

[00:02:26] Georgia: It’s that classic saying of like people don’t have enough time to go on a time management course. So I think it’s long form learning. I think as well, it’s, it’s that thing of transfer of knowledge. So people are going, this is what we think the skills gap is here. And we’re going to teach you about this thing that we think you’re missing currently.

[00:02:45] Georgia: And I think for a lot of people, it’s just not relevant, or a lot of this, the content isn’t relevant. And so they’re, you know, they’re giving up all of this, Time to go on this pro whatever it is, the program maybe, and it just doesn’t feel relevant to them. So, you know, they’re disengaged and yeah, it’s this one size fits all model.

[00:03:03] Georgia: And I think workplaces are so complex and you know, the context for each person that they sit within is so individual to them that I just think a one size fits all approach doesn’t work for people anymore. I also think why learning isn’t as effective as it can be. I don’t know if you’ve heard of the, um, learning.

[00:03:24] Georgia: Uh, times transfer equation.

[00:03:26] Joseph: Mm hmm.

[00:03:27] Georgia: Yeah, so learning times transfer equals effectiveness. And actually what most companies do is they focus on the learning part of that equation at the actual learning event. Um, and that’s great. And even if you have like this wonderful program that you go on and you’re like really inspired when it’s done and you’re like, I’m going to go out and put all of this great stuff into practice.

[00:03:50] Georgia: What we know is. that the information is forgotten or drops off really, really quickly. It’s just human nature. We can’t retain it. So what organizations aren’t doing enough of is focusing on the transfer part. So how are we embedding that learning? Like, how are we keeping that learning alive? To make sure that it’s not just like a great program and then done.

[00:04:15] Georgia: And nothing’s different as a result of the learning event. So I think that’s a challenge and that’s a potential risk with companies. And then I think the last part of why learning isn’t as effective as it could be is because I think people are overwhelmed. We’re getting an influx of information everywhere we turn.

[00:04:38] Georgia: In our personal lives at work, you know, on our phones, on our laptops, like we’re just flooded with information. Well intentioned L and D professionals, you know, want to give people the support, the training, the development that they so desperately need and are asking for. But actually what I think we’re seeing is not a lack of knowledge, but people who don’t understand how to put into practice what they already know.

[00:05:06] Georgia: So people, so just to summarize that, I guess it’s people don’t need more information. They need better ways to apply what they already know, application piece. And that’s where I think coaching can really come in.

[00:05:20] Joseph: Yeah. You raise, I think some really interesting points around why learning in organizations doesn’t necessarily work as much we’d like to.

[00:05:29] Joseph: And I feel One thing that I was thinking about was around how organizations measure learning. Like, it’s really difficult to measure the transfer of learning that you’re talking about. I think organizations, in a way, are comforted by the fact that learning events are happening. They can measure them.

[00:05:48] Joseph: They measure them through happy sheets or engagement surveys. So from an ROI or from a kind of tracking perspective, we’ve got the information. But actually, how do we measure social learning, collaboration, and the true changes and shifts that happen afterwards? How do we measure that? How do we measure when somebody actually is transferring that learning back into the workplace?

[00:06:11] Joseph: And that’s because we can’t really measure it fully.

[00:06:14] Georgia: Yeah. No, and exactly like I get it. I empathize it Like you said, it’s really hard to measure the longer term term impact of learning solutions But we know that that transfer piece is important because it happens so much like our everyday lives. It’s like we know logically that you know, we should probably eat five vegetables and pieces of fruit a day, and we should work out four or five times a week.

[00:06:38] Georgia: Like we know that, but we don’t always do it. And so it’s that difference between knowing something and being something. We really focus on, on the being, on the transferring what we know into our everyday lives. That’s the key piece for me. And there are lots of things that will stop us from transferring that knowledge from what we want to be into actually being it, you know, it comes up in coaching again and again and again.

[00:07:04] Georgia: It’s. It’s limiting beliefs, it’s unhelpful stories that we’re telling ourselves, it’s a confidence issue, imposter syndrome, it, whatever it is. If we can focus on unpicking those things, I think that’s when we unlock knowing something logically into doing it or being it.

[00:07:22] Joseph: So I’m guessing here, what you’re saying is that, that is part of the reason why coaching is kind of the future of learning, because it supports that transfer of learning, that individual reflection, that reflective process, that supports more of a one to one basis.

[00:07:37] Joseph: That relationship with that person. Tell us a bit more about that. Maybe

[00:07:42] Georgia: it links back to what you said. It’s of like, it’s so important because if not, it’s, it’s a false return on investment. So when you think about coaching, the beauty of it is it factors in context. And what I mean by that is, um, so say, for example, I’m a manager.

[00:07:57] Georgia: Yeah. And I’ve been on a sort of basic management training course, for example, I know what good looks like I know what it means to be a good manager. And I really want to go out and be a great manager. But I have the context that’s very individual to me, my, my specific set of circumstances that I operate in.

[00:08:17] Georgia: So My team that I might have underneath me or my manager who might be great or not so great or the business that I operate in. So all of this context that’s so personal to the individual, that’s what coaching factors in. And I think again, linking back that that’s the problem with like off the shelf learning solutions is it doesn’t factor in complex and individual context of the individual.

[00:08:45] Joseph: Yeah, yeah. It’s also, I’m thinking about this from the lens of our own coach training programs here at Become. Like we have our classes, which are more off the shelf in a way, although they are delivered live and the content, of course, changes depending on the audience. Um, then on top of that, there is more in terms of the observations which are unique to the person.

[00:09:10] Joseph: The feedback that we provide in a one-to-one context where we are supporting that person develop their coaching skills within their own context, and they’re getting feedback on how the coaching in that context. So I think that really is important.

[00:09:25] Georgia: Yeah, I agree. Like it needs to have a personalized element for people to really be able to go away and embed it and make it real.

[00:09:33] Georgia: And I think especially if you look at like younger workforces, so like Gen Z, I do think that personalization Of an experience is an expectation. Now, everything we consume is personalized. Like the adverts that are pushed to us. Um, if we go and sign up and want to get fit, we want a personal trainer, or at least a program that’s personalized to us.

[00:09:58] Georgia: Like we just expect personalization because we don’t have the time or energy to consume something that doesn’t feel relevant to us. We’re completely overwhelmed with, with volume of information. So we need to be cherry picking the parts that are relevant to us so that we stay safe. It’s too much.

[00:10:20] Joseph: Um, the other thing I feel where perhaps and see what you think about this.

[00:10:24] Joseph: Well, learning is also a little bit broken in organizations. It’s because sometimes organizations really focus on fixing the problem rather than coaching the person in a way.

[00:10:34] Georgia: The point that demonstrates that perfectly is the principle in coaching, which, which says, and is drummed into us as coaches, coach the person.

[00:10:43] Georgia: Not the problem. So develop the person, don’t fix the problem. And why that’s important for me is, um, I don’t know if you have this, I certainly have this, like when you have a, a coachee come to you and they’ve got a challenge or something they’re struggling with or a goal that they’re, they’ve set and they don’t know quite how to get there.

[00:11:03] Georgia: It can be really tempting to focus on, on the problem or fix the problem or the challenge because. When we fix the problem or focus on the challenge, we get that instant feedback like, Oh, you fixed my problem. And I feel great now and I’m happy and you’re a great coach and you’re doing your job really well.

[00:11:23] Georgia: And it feeds into that sort of ego thing of, I know that I as a coach am adding value and doing a good job. So I think it’s really natural. Uh, and we def, I definitely see that with a lot of managers who are lovely people as they go around trying to fix people’s problems. Problems, but I think the challenge with that when you’re spending all of your energy in that space of fixing people’s problems Is what will happen is?

[00:11:49] Georgia: Next month or the month after inevitably that person will just be back in the room with you with a new problem or a new challenge because that’s, that’s life. That’s human nature, like the world moves on, new challenges come up, people evolve and change. And so actually what you’re doing is not helping people, you’re creating a cycle of dependency there.

[00:12:16] Georgia: So actually I think if you want to really sustainably develop people and empower people, then you need to focus on coaching the person and growing and developing the person so that not only can they go out and solve that one problem for themselves, but they can go out and fix. multiple problems or tackle multiple challenges or meet multiple goals.

[00:12:44] Georgia: And that is a much more sustainable way of, of yeah, developing people and growing workforces, I think.

[00:12:54] Joseph: Did you know that I’d become We offer a number of different coach training programs to people just like you. If you’re new to coaching, there is a level one diploma in integrative coaching. If you’ve been coaching for a while, or perhaps you’re already an ACC coach, then we have the advanced diploma in integrative coaching, which leads all the way to the PCC credential by the ICF.

[00:13:17] Joseph: We also have a number of CPD programs and certificates. Including mentoring and supervision to find out more go to to become. org or just check the show notes

[00:13:33] Joseph: When I was a newbie coach, I suppose that made me feel really uncomfortable I was coaching More the what of the coaching session. I was coaching the problem And I noticed in a way how I was getting paid To develop individuals to be reliant on me and that really felt unethical I thought people are paying me So they become dependent on me solving problems for them and that just doesn’t feel right to me

[00:13:57] Georgia: Yeah But it’s that weird mix of although you recognize that just like it’s also a weird thing as a coach to know that your end Goal is in a certain amount of months time.

[00:14:08] Georgia: This person will not need you like that’s the goal Grow that person so much that they You you coach them out of coaching.

[00:14:17] Joseph: Yeah, exactly that. I think of my clients and coaching as in a way I’m developing them to be their own coaches within their own right so they can coach themselves Rather than becoming reliant on me,

[00:14:29] Georgia: you know, I completely agree I think one of the main things we’re trying to do as coaches is to raise people’s self awareness So that they can come back to more conscious choice.

[00:14:42] Georgia: And it’s hard to be self aware when you first come into coaching. That’s why you need a coach to help you to, you know, hold a mirror up to you and go, Okay, like this is what I’m seeing you’re doing this really well. Here are your blind spots. Here’s a perspective you might not have considered. Um, you know, that’s why people come to coaching, but, but you’re right, like by the end of your coaching relationship, hopefully they will You know have that self awareness and then be able to to choose themselves without our support as coaches.

[00:15:11] Georgia: Yeah,

[00:15:11] Joseph: that’s right They’re becoming more resourceful in the way that they’re approaching problem solving and not just thinking about Um problem solving as one problem. It’s about how do we support? How do we as coaches support the client develop their skills to be more sustainable in terms of long term change?

[00:15:30] Joseph: When they’re working with different kind of challenges

[00:15:33] Georgia: Exactly that, because, yeah, it comes back to that sustainability piece of, like, there will always be a never ending amount of things, of stuff that we come up against. That, that’s just life, and that’s being human. If we can look inwards more, around, okay, well, irrelevant of what’s going on outside of me, if I can focus on my mindset, or how I choose to, to show up in, in this situation, or how I choose to tackle that.

[00:16:02] Georgia: That’s what you can control. You obviously can’t control the external.

[00:16:06] Joseph: That’s right. They’re becoming more resourceful in the way that they’re approaching problem solving. And not just thinking about, um, problem solving as one problem. It’s about how do we support, how do we as coaches support the client develop their skills to be more sustainable in terms of long term change when they’re working with different kind of challenges.

[00:16:28] Georgia: Yeah, so I, I think looking at it from a different perspective, um, An organizational perspective. There’s a lot of noise recently around, um, acknowledging it’s called the forgotten middle, that natural thing where companies spend their budget and their resources and their energy and time on two different groups.

[00:16:49] Georgia: So first of all, the group of people who are entering the workforce. Um, making sure they know they’re up to, up to speed, they’re upskilled in the ways they need to be looking on, you know, have we got any sort of like high potential talent down there that we really want to bring up? And then they also focus on, you know, right at the top of the organization.

[00:17:10] Georgia: So senior, senior leadership, how do we develop those people who are leading and setting the vision for the company? Because. You know, they, you know, naturally it’s going to have some form of trickle down effect on the whole company. Then you’ve got this whole band in the middle, the forgotten middle of middle managers, especially early stage managers who are normally promoted because they’re technically good at their job.

[00:17:35] Georgia: And they probably, you know, You know, have got some initiative, they can be trusted to get on and figure it out and just do. And so companies don’t spend much, much time there. But actually, this is the band of people who have the most Touch points within the organization. Um, they have a team of people or people who report up to them.

[00:17:58] Georgia: They report up to a manager. So they’re that middle part that was responsible for the flow of communication up and down the organization. And ultimately we all know what it’s like. I’d be amazed if you haven’t, we’ve all had an experience of a terrible manager, a manager who we’ve showed up and they’ve just like made life.

[00:18:18] Georgia: You know, so miserable for us. And it really does have such an impact on our lives, not only in work, but outside of work, and that’s just a terrible place to be when you’re sitting under a rubbish manager. And we also on the flip side had. The opposite experience, hopefully, of where you’ve operated up a wonderful manager.

[00:18:37] Georgia: And we know what that feels like. It feels, you know, inspiring and we’re energized and we’re fulfilled when we go to work. As a result, our performance is incredible. So Pete, you’ve got this, so many people sitting under this, this band of middle managers, and you have to think, okay, what impact are they having on the whole company?

[00:18:57] Georgia: Because they’ll be having an impact, whether it’s. That’s good, bad, or just indifferent.

[00:19:01] Joseph: So we’re getting a really good idea why coaching in a way is the future of learning. It’s much more individualized. It considers the context, it focuses on the transfer of learning as we’re talking. And at the same time, I know we’ve got passionate about this.

[00:19:17] Joseph: We know that sometimes coaching and organizations is kind of provided only to people at senior levels. within the organization rather than across the organization. So I know we both value this idea about democratizing coaching in organizations, and that is really important for us. What do you think are the benefits of this approach?

[00:19:39] Joseph: Um, particularly for early stage managers or new line managers?

[00:19:44] Georgia: Exactly. There’s this really wonderful video called, um, it’s called Turn the Ship Around. It demonstrates your point wonderfully. It’s about instead of just having like one really great captain leading the ship, um, to a certain destination, can we empower people so that you have, you know, a thousand autonomous, effective, problem solving, intelligent brains.

[00:20:09] Georgia: Leading the ship to where it needs to be. Um, you’re going to be so much more effective and you’re right. Like no one shows up to work with the intention of being a bad manager or having a, you know, a bad impact on the people that they lead. It’s just because they’re not given the support and the development that they need to be a great manager.

[00:20:29] Georgia: It’s a certain skillset. That is why I think coaching, getting it in at that lower level is so important. important.

[00:20:37] Joseph: Yeah. And I’m thinking about there could be in this band, there could be good people that actually just don’t know how to manage as well. I worked with managers that I knew were really trying their best, but they didn’t really understand how to manage a team.

[00:20:50] Joseph: It was very much so, like we were saying earlier, fixing a problem. I found a lot of managers focused on the aspect of management, but actually not supporting individual development. So it’s kind of a technical thing. Yeah. Uh, but from a management point of view, the manager would ideally be supporting the individual, figuring out how to solve that problem, the opportunity, that challenge, so that the person can become more resourceful in the future as well.

[00:21:17] Georgia: Yeah, so I guess I went away and created Spinach because you know, there are other digital coaching solutions out there, um, that are wonderful and great, but they, they do still sit at a price point. That means they’re not really democratizing coaching. And I think that’s, that’s the biggest blocker for companies when they, you know, they want to take coaching and plug it into their organization.

[00:21:46] Georgia: They have limited budgets. And so I don’t know many companies who can afford to go and spend, you know, four grand ahead every year and put that in at every level of the organization. So I basically wanted to create something that meant we could just get it to people earlier on in their careers. So it needed to be more accessible.

[00:22:05] Georgia: It needed to be more affordable. And so I went away and tried to like, I guess, take apart the traditional coaching model and try and put it back together in a way. That maintains the quality, but, but reduce the price point. And there’s a couple of things we do that, that means, yeah, we can, we can do that with, with our coaching.

[00:22:26] Joseph: Yeah, tell us a bit more about the things that you do. I’m intrigued about how you support organisations achieve a level of quality in terms of coaching sessions. But at the same time making them kind of more affordable and making them more, um, accessible to other people as well.

[00:22:43] Georgia: So I guess it’s a couple of things that makes Spinach look slightly different to traditional executive level coaching.

[00:22:51] Georgia: First one is, is that the sessions are 25 minutes long. There might be coaches listening to this. podcast. So with an audible intake, like a gasp, like, what do you do in 45 minutes? That’s often some of the pushback that I hear. And I completely get that. But you know, we did extensive testing around, you know, what’s the minimum amount of time that we can coach for?

[00:23:19] Georgia: And still add value. 25 minutes is it? So, yes, acknowledging it’s not 60 minutes or 90 minutes where you’ve got loads of space and room to do, you know, really complex, deep work. But actually what our sessions allow people to do is, is have a coaching session when they’re, when they don’t, they don’t have much time in their diary to prioritize their own development.

[00:23:42] Georgia: So most people can, can fit in 25 minutes in a month and actually come to a session and be really focused. Okay, this is where I am. This is where I want to be. And how can we do a deep dive really quickly to unlock the thing that’s going to make the difference for me. So that’s the first thing, it’s about time.

[00:24:01] Joseph: I’m also thinking how that links to the idea that we’re having coaching sessions, let’s say six sessions or eight sessions, the fact that we know that there’s a finite amount of time, finite amount of sessions, really helps the client to be more accountable, to be more aware of the timings, rather than think that coaching is just an ongoing process.

[00:24:20] Joseph: And I feel what you’re saying here, Georgia, is that. It relates to the same philosophy. Like if you know you’ve got 25 minutes, then you’ve got to go in and make the most of those 25 minutes, because really every minute counts.

[00:24:32] Georgia: Exactly that. It’s, yeah, it’s, it’s every minute counts. It just, it just focuses people’s minds.

[00:24:38] Georgia: I mean, one of the things that people say is, well, you know, what about context? And it’s going to take me 10 minutes to, um, you know, get my coach up to speed with what’s happening. And I guess my challenge back to that would be, and I don’t know if you have thoughts on this, but as a coach, I don’t need to know the whole story that we can get wrapped up in this storytelling thing of all this happened and then this and like as a coach to help you to move forward.

[00:25:05] Georgia: I don’t need to know the story. A little bit of context would be helpful. Actually, you know the story and you have the answers. So I just need to help you to understand it better.

[00:25:17] Joseph: 100%. I, I completely, I think being in coaching, we sometimes talk about challenging the client and supporting the client to explore a little bit deeper and a bit further, and that they might be a bit uncomfortable with some of that challenge.

[00:25:31] Joseph: And I feel that that challenge needs to also extend to us as coaches, that we need to be comfortable being in a space where we don’t understand the client’s context fully, where we are supporting the client, but we don’t know all of the details about the client situation. Otherwise, um, it doesn’t feel like it’s a fair approach if the client is spending time within the session telling us things that they already know just for the sake of our own experience.

[00:26:03] Georgia: You’re right, like, I think if we’re doing great work as coaches, or if the relationship is working, it can feel like we’re sort of on this little edge where it’s a little bit uncomfortable. We, we don’t know everything or we don’t know where the conversation might be going. We just sort of like riding on an intuition as a coach, but.

[00:26:22] Georgia: When we’re operating in that space, I think that’s when we as a coach are growing and the person we’re coaching is growing and stretching and developing. Because we’re not in that safe, comfortable space of knowing exactly to a point where we’re moving beyond that.

[00:26:39] Joseph: I also feel really bad because I cut you off there.

[00:26:42] Joseph: We were talking about the first one and then I got excited about this idea about the 25 minute session. So tell us a bit more about, you know, some of the other features.

[00:26:51] Georgia: Yeah, so no, so that’s, that’s one feature. And the other feature that allows us to, like I said, maintain quality, but really reduce the price point is, um, and this is going to be another controversial one is we don’t have continuity of coach.

[00:27:07] Georgia: So each time someone books, Um, they’ll be automatically assigned their coach upon booking. So over the course of a year, if they’re lucky enough to have a session a month, they might see 12 different coaches. And I think what I would add to that is, look, I completely get from a user perspective that, you know, it feels nice to see the same person.

[00:27:31] Georgia: Like I get it, you know, what you’re walking into. It’s that place of comfort, of knowing, of control. But actually my challenge to that would be is that you’re getting 12 different learning experiences. So 12 different coaches and each coach is It’s so unique and individual, and they all have a different way of getting you to where you need to be.

[00:27:54] Georgia: They will offer different perspectives, they’ll challenge you in a different way. And I think there can be so much, there’s so much richness that can come from all of those different experiences that you might not have if you stuck with one coach. And I do think it’s that, that thing again, that we said previously around, um, You know, I don’t need to know the whole story or the whole journey of where you’ve been and where you want to go to help you in this moment.

[00:28:18] Georgia: Like you’re showing up as you are right now, and I’m going to support you in this moment. And so, yes, I get that that might feel uncomfortable for, for some coaches and for some coaches, but actually we see, you know, the feedback is, it is incredible. And people, Have so much growth and development seeing a different coach each time.

[00:28:37] Georgia: So, so that’s when I would really challenge.

[00:28:40] Joseph: I remember when you first told me about it, you probably noticed the look on my face. I was like, so they don’t see the same coach across the sessions. And I do understand that from a practical point of view though, if we’re really focusing on making coaching more accessible, then we’re looking at it in a way from what can we offer to organizations so that we can provide a level of quality of service to individuals, but to a wider audience.

[00:29:05] Joseph: And this could be one of the solutions.

[00:29:07] Georgia: Yeah, I agree with you. Like, look, I think if you have the budget to give an executive level coach to everyone in your company, like do it, but you’re right. We need to find innovation, innovative, new ways. To democratize coaching, so something has to give. And ultimately, yes, if I was going out, and, you know, our feedback was rubbish, I wouldn’t be pushing it, or people wouldn’t be buying it.

[00:29:30] Georgia: I think people are, are seeing that what they believed or the truths that they held about coaching aren’t necessarily as true as. Maybe they thought.

[00:29:39] Joseph: Yeah, and there’s also a lot of things in coaching that we don’t know. There’s not enough research that actually shows that continuity does offer support on certain outcomes that the client wants to achieve.

[00:29:50] Joseph: We’re still experimenting to a degree in terms of coaching process and practices.

[00:29:55] Georgia: And I would always ask the question of, okay, well, if you believe that continuity of coach is important, like why, why is that important? And the pushbacks I get are, well, it’s about, you know, creating and building trust. and rapport And actually I think okay.

[00:30:10] Georgia: Well if if that’s the concern well other things create trust and build psychological safety You know, there’s other things that our coach coaches do to compensate that So so yeah, i’m always keen to understand what if you believe that why is that important to you? And

[00:30:25] Joseph: I also feel it helps to create trust in the model and the way that The client is really clear, the expectation is set that we’re meeting for a 25 minute session.

[00:30:36] Joseph: We might see each other again, but also we might not. For me there is clarity in the process and that helps to build trust.

[00:30:44] Georgia: Exactly that and, and yeah, and I, and I do think, you know, the things like the 25 minutes is bite sized learning, that’s not a compromise for a lot of people. It’s, it’s a preference.

[00:30:55] Georgia: They can engage with someone when they need it, when it’s relevant to them, they can fit it in their diaries. So it’s actually a benefit versus a compromise for a lot of people.

[00:31:04] Joseph: So Georgia, before we end our episode today, I just want to ask you, if some organizations are thinking about integrating more coaching into their strategies, particularly as we’re saying into this kind of forgotten middle, is there a tip or anything that you can share with us?

[00:31:19] Georgia: I think my advice would be, there’s lots of ways you can do it. Different approaches have different benefits and downsides. So I guess the first thing I would say, like best case scenario for me, if you want to get coaching in to your company or you want to create a coaching culture, which is something that we hear a lot nowadays, my number one recommendation, if you can would be to give people the experience of coaching.

[00:31:47] Georgia: So I think a lot of companies, You know, want to have a coaching culture or want their managers to lead in a, in a coaching style. But most people, especially at that middle manager level, don’t know, don’t really know what coaching is. Um, they don’t have an idea of what good looks like. They think it’s telling someone what to do really nicely.

[00:32:11] Georgia: So I think, can you give people the experience of coaching so that they, they know what those skills are. They know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of. of that, of a great coaching conversation. So that’s, that’s number one. Um, I guess if you can’t do that, I would think, you know, are there other innovative ways that you can get coaching into the company?

[00:32:30] Georgia: So, so a lot of companies will put certain people within the organization through coach certification. That’s great and a really sustainable, affordable way to get coaching in. I think there are some challenges with that around confidentiality of having someone who sits within the business coaching you.

[00:32:47] Georgia: I think that dynamic. Sometimes be tough. But still better than, than nothing for sure. And then lastly, I, I guess if my last tip would be if, if you are wanting say managers or your leaders to, to bring in coaching and managing a coaching style, it’s giving them the, the proper training and development to, to know what, what great coaching is, what are those skill sets.

[00:33:12] Georgia: It’s not just telling people what to do nicely. It’s about powerful questions and holding space and, you know, active listening and curiosity.

[00:33:21] Joseph: Thank you so much, Georgia, for being here. We could keep on talking about this for ages, but I wanted to say a huge thank you for being on the podcast. It’s so lovely to have you here.

[00:33:31] Joseph: And I’m sure our audience has really enjoyed today’s episode as well.

[00:33:34] Georgia: No problem. It was a pleasure. I could spend all day talking about coaching and all that. So thank you

[00:33:39] for having me.

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